Posts : 7510 Join date : 2009-12-01 Age : 35 Location : outside Turry's window
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:29 pm
Keep it civil folks...
Nawkes Member
Posts : 6785 Join date : 2010-04-09 Age : 30 Location : Location Location
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:32 pm
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Well, I like to approach everything scientifically. However, due to some of my family, I have experienced events that I have no explanation for.
Wait... what?
I have some practitioners of Voo Doo in my family. I've had weird experiences at some of their houses. There's too many to count.
Ixidor Asgrod Member
Posts : 1489 Join date : 2010-06-17 Age : 34
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:35 pm
Rorschach wrote:
And the same applies to science. Just because science cannot prove God or any other higher entity, doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you can't prove something, it doesn't mean that doesn't exist. Science tries to ridiculize everything they cannot prove because well, if they cannot prove it, it doesn't exist. That's as illogical as anything you might say about religion.
The first one (The Argument from Ignorance) is stating:
General forms of the argument:
1. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been disproven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) true. 2. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been proven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) false.
Carl Sagan famously criticized the practice by referring to it as "impatience with ambiguity", pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". This should not, however, be taken to mean that one can never possess evidence that something does not exist (one can possess such evidence). Instead, Sagan's famous quote is a reminder that inferences must be made carefully, and that science makes no claims to absolute certainty, only high probability.
That's what it means. Science makes no formal claim that God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, Ghosts, etc don't exist, merely that there is a high PROBABLILITY that they don't exist.
The other article (Burden of Proof) is about this:
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on him or her making a claim. This burden does not demand a mathematical or strictly logical proof (although many strong arguments do rise to this level such as in logical syllogisms), but rather demands an amount of evidence that is established or accepted by convention or community standards.
This burden of proof is often asymmetrical and typically falls more heavily on the party that makes either an ontologically positive claim, or makes a claim more "extraordinary", that is farther removed from conventionally accepted facts.
Statement / Burden of proof (the lines underneath it)
So yes, while Science does owe some proof that _______ doesn't exist or that _______ isn't real, the person making the greater claim (like _______ does exist!) has the greatest burden of proof, regardless of the subject of the claim.
But here's the most important part: Regardless, it is going to come down to a matter of belief. You can believe in religion and ghosts even if there is no scientific proof or scientific disproof, that is the benefit of freedom.
And this is agreed by one of my greatest friends, a VERY religious Protestant who believes so strongly that he doesn't believe people actually have free will.
The Laughing Man Moderator
Posts : 4443 Join date : 2010-03-18 Age : 33 Location : Exploring the island of Dressrosa.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:36 pm
Malcolm Member
Posts : 2538 Join date : 2010-09-13 Age : 28 Location : Closer than you think.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:36 pm
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Well, I like to approach everything scientifically. However, due to some of my family, I have experienced events that I have no explanation for.
Wait... what?
I have some practitioners of Voo Doo in my family. I've had weird experiences at some of their houses. There's too many to count.
Voo Doo? I knew you were like that for a reason. No Pandamari can spam so much without some sort of witchcraft.
The Laughing Man Moderator
Posts : 4443 Join date : 2010-03-18 Age : 33 Location : Exploring the island of Dressrosa.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:39 pm
Ixidor Asgrod wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
And the same applies to science. Just because science cannot prove God or any other higher entity, doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you can't prove something, it doesn't mean that doesn't exist. Science tries to ridiculize everything they cannot prove because well, if they cannot prove it, it doesn't exist. That's as illogical as anything you might say about religion.
The first one (The Argument from Ignorance) is stating:
General forms of the argument:
1. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been disproven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) true. 2. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been proven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) false.
Carl Sagan famously criticized the practice by referring to it as "impatience with ambiguity", pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". This should not, however, be taken to mean that one can never possess evidence that something does not exist (one can possess such evidence). Instead, Sagan's famous quote is a reminder that inferences must be made carefully, and that science makes no claims to absolute certainty, only high probability.
That's what it means. Science makes no formal claim that God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, Ghosts, etc don't exist, merely that there is a high PROBABLILITY that they don't exist.
The other article (Burden of Proof) is about this:
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on him or her making a claim. This burden does not demand a mathematical or strictly logical proof (although many strong arguments do rise to this level such as in logical syllogisms), but rather demands an amount of evidence that is established or accepted by convention or community standards.
This burden of proof is often asymmetrical and typically falls more heavily on the party that makes either an ontologically positive claim, or makes a claim more "extraordinary", that is farther removed from conventionally accepted facts.
Statement / Burden of proof (the lines underneath it)
So yes, while Science does owe some proof that _______ doesn't exist or that _______ isn't real, the person making the greater claim (like _______ does exist!) has the greatest burden of proof, regardless of the subject of the claim.
But here's the most important part: Regardless, it is going to come down to a matter of belief. You can believe in religion and ghosts even if there is no scientific proof or scientific disproof, that is the benefit of freedom.
And this is agreed by one of my greatest friends, a VERY religious Protestant who believes so strongly that he doesn't believe people actually have free will.
Simply put:
The world is split into two groups...
Group #1: Seeing IS Believing. (Realist - needs more proof to accept) Group #2: Believing IS Seeing. (Optimist - needs less proof to accept)
However, I'm somewhat in the middle.
Last edited by Galenth Dysley on Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
Scott Chain Member
Posts : 7510 Join date : 2009-12-01 Age : 35 Location : outside Turry's window
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:39 pm
Fun fact... to throw into this thread.
I was born in New London, Connecticut. After which my dad left the Navy and we moved to Southington, Connecticut only a few blocks away from where the movie "The Haunting in Connecticut" originated from.
Malcolm Member
Posts : 2538 Join date : 2010-09-13 Age : 28 Location : Closer than you think.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:40 pm
Ixidor Asgrod wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
And the same applies to science. Just because science cannot prove God or any other higher entity, doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you can't prove something, it doesn't mean that doesn't exist. Science tries to ridiculize everything they cannot prove because well, if they cannot prove it, it doesn't exist. That's as illogical as anything you might say about religion.
The first one (The Argument from Ignorance) is stating:
General forms of the argument:
1. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been disproven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) true. 2. P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) has never been proven therefore P (Religion, God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, etc) is/(must be) false.
Carl Sagan famously criticized the practice by referring to it as "impatience with ambiguity", pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". This should not, however, be taken to mean that one can never possess evidence that something does not exist (one can possess such evidence). Instead, Sagan's famous quote is a reminder that inferences must be made carefully, and that science makes no claims to absolute certainty, only high probability.
That's what it means. Science makes no formal claim that God, Space Kitties, Time traveling Toasters, Ghosts, etc don't exist, merely that there is a high PROBABLILITY that they don't exist.
The other article (Burden of Proof) is about this:
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on him or her making a claim. This burden does not demand a mathematical or strictly logical proof (although many strong arguments do rise to this level such as in logical syllogisms), but rather demands an amount of evidence that is established or accepted by convention or community standards.
This burden of proof is often asymmetrical and typically falls more heavily on the party that makes either an ontologically positive claim, or makes a claim more "extraordinary", that is farther removed from conventionally accepted facts.
Statement / Burden of proof (the lines underneath it)
So yes, while Science does owe some proof that _______ doesn't exist or that _______ isn't real, the person making the greater claim (like _______ does exist!) has the greatest burden of proof, regardless of the subject of the claim.
But here's the most important part: Regardless, it is going to come down to a matter of belief. You can believe in religion and ghosts even if there is no scientific proof or scientific disproof, that is the benefit of freedom.
And this is agreed by one of my greatest friends, a VERY religious Protestant who believes so strongly that he doesn't believe people actually have free will.
That's pretty much what I said to Titan(Of course, this is more scientific). At the end, it doesn't matter if something exist or doesn't exist. People should accept that there are other people in the world, and that not every single one of them is going to beleive the same thing. People have the right to beleive in what they want, but what people doesn't have if the right to insult people that doesn't beleive in what they beleive*cough*Titan*cough*.
Nawkes Member
Posts : 6785 Join date : 2010-04-09 Age : 30 Location : Location Location
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:48 pm
Rorschach wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Well, I like to approach everything scientifically. However, due to some of my family, I have experienced events that I have no explanation for.
Wait... what?
I have some practitioners of Voo Doo in my family. I've had weird experiences at some of their houses. There's too many to count.
Voo Doo? I knew you were like that for a reason. No Pandamari can spam so much without some sort of witchcraft.
Is it ironic that I want to be a Witch Doctor in Diablo 3?
Malcolm Member
Posts : 2538 Join date : 2010-09-13 Age : 28 Location : Closer than you think.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:49 pm
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Mon Pandamari wrote:
Well, I like to approach everything scientifically. However, due to some of my family, I have experienced events that I have no explanation for.
Wait... what?
I have some practitioners of Voo Doo in my family. I've had weird experiences at some of their houses. There's too many to count.
Voo Doo? I knew you were like that for a reason. No Pandamari can spam so much without some sort of witchcraft.
Is it ironic that I want to be a Witch Doctor in Diablo 3?
No, not at all.
Ixidor Asgrod Member
Posts : 1489 Join date : 2010-06-17 Age : 34
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:56 pm
Rorschach wrote:
it doesn't matter if something exist or doesn't exist. People should accept that there are other people in the world, and that not every single one of them is going to beleive the same thing. People have the right to beleive in what they want, but what people doesn't have if the right to insult people that doesn't beleive in what they beleive*cough*Titan*cough*.
I can accept the positions of "new/militant" atheists just as much any other belief, as long as they remain rational, and realistic about their ideals. It's no different than say a very devout member of his religion who believes say women should be covered at all times in public or that homosexuals are going to hell. I understand those people's beliefs, I may disagree with them, but I won't take away their rights to get them to stop saying it.
I would also point out that freedom of speech works both ways. Yes you can say "I love balloons" as an expression of your freedom of speech but you must also accept that people are going to say things that you may not like. For example: "I think ______ group of people are inferior for _______ reasons".
What I view as important is the fact that you are out there, discussing, arguing, fighting. As long as you are out in the world, interacting with people, getting your beliefs challenged and defending your own claims or the claims of others. That's how you learn more about yourself and the world. And in fact, that's how I learn about the world. I go to class, take notes, learn stuff, but then I return to my apartment and find some information on something I believe or want to learn more about.
I learned that I was a metaphysical naturalist by debating with a Mathematician who writes little summaries for Philosophy papers as a living, I figured out why I'm not a secular humanist by talking to them.
That's what I view as important, being open minded and not allowing yourself to become encased in your own bubble. It'll make you a wiser person.
The Laughing Man Moderator
Posts : 4443 Join date : 2010-03-18 Age : 33 Location : Exploring the island of Dressrosa.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:00 pm
^Embrace the wisdom.
Malcolm Member
Posts : 2538 Join date : 2010-09-13 Age : 28 Location : Closer than you think.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:00 pm
Ixidor Asgrod wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
it doesn't matter if something exist or doesn't exist. People should accept that there are other people in the world, and that not every single one of them is going to beleive the same thing. People have the right to beleive in what they want, but what people doesn't have if the right to insult people that doesn't beleive in what they beleive*cough*Titan*cough*.
I can accept the positions of "new/militant" atheists just as much any other belief, as long as they remain rational, and realistic about their ideals. It's no different than say a very devout member of his religion who believes say women should be covered at all times in public or that homosexuals are going to hell. I understand those people's beliefs, I may disagree with them, but I won't take away their rights to get them to stop saying it.
I would also point out that freedom of speech works both ways. Yes you can say "I love balloons" as an expression of your freedom of speech but you must also accept that people are going to say things that you may not like. For example: "I think ______ group of people are inferior for _______ reasons".
What I view as important is the fact that you are out there, discussing, arguing, fighting. As long as you are out in the world, interacting with people, getting your beliefs challenged and defending your own claims or the claims of others. That's how you learn more about yourself and the world. And in fact, that's how I learn about the world. I go to class, take notes, learn stuff, but then I return to my apartment and find some information on something I believe or want to learn more about.
I learned that I was a metaphysical naturalist by debating with a Mathematician who writes little summaries for Philosophy papers as a living, I figured out why I'm not a secular humanist by talking to them.
That's what I view as important, being open minded and not allowing yourself to become encased in your own bubble. It'll make you a wiser person.
Wise words. I wish more people were like you in that aspect.(Don't know you enough to say: I wish more people were like you. You could be a psychopath or something like that........)
The Laughing Man Moderator
Posts : 4443 Join date : 2010-03-18 Age : 33 Location : Exploring the island of Dressrosa.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:07 pm
Ixidor Asgrod: Bill Nye the Science Guy on steroids... and crack cocaine.
Ixidor Asgrod Member
Posts : 1489 Join date : 2010-06-17 Age : 34
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:17 pm
Rorschach wrote:
Wise words. I wish more people were like you in that aspect.(Don't know you enough to say: I wish more people were like you. You could be a psychopath or something like that........)
Nah, I'm far too passive to be a sociopath. I lack the ability to manipulate people like that, I do know a few people that I'm no longer friends with that do have that ability.
But thank you though, I won't pretend that it came easily. Took me about 16-17 years to eventually get to that point. Mostly from my experiences with the Rational Response Squad (whose forums I linked to earlier). When I saw those guys and how they acted, I was kind of done with that attitude.
I love debate, and so should other people, even if they don't come out the winner. Even debating someone of your own faith can be helpful. My friend that I mentioned before (the Protestant) loves to ask people about their beliefs and challenge them on it, and they don't particularly seem to mind.
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Ixidor Asgrod: Bill Nye the Science Guy on steroids... and crack cocaine.
I actually have his autograph, he wrote Science Rules and then signed it.
But can that be my official title? I kind of like it.
The Laughing Man Moderator
Posts : 4443 Join date : 2010-03-18 Age : 33 Location : Exploring the island of Dressrosa.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:21 pm
Ixidor Asgrod wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
Wise words. I wish more people were like you in that aspect.(Don't know you enough to say: I wish more people were like you. You could be a psychopath or something like that........)
Nah, I'm far too passive to be a sociopath. I lack the ability to manipulate people like that, I do know a few people that I'm no longer friends with that do have that ability.
But thank you though, I won't pretend that it came easily. Took me about 16-17 years to eventually get to that point. Mostly from my experiences with the Rational Response Squad (whose forums I linked to earlier). When I saw those guys and how they acted, I was kind of done with that attitude.
I love debate, and so should other people, even if they don't come out the winner. Even debating someone of your own faith can be helpful. My friend that I mentioned before (the Protestant) loves to ask people about their beliefs and challenge them on it, and they don't particularly seem to mind.
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Ixidor Asgrod: Bill Nye the Science Guy on steroids... and crack cocaine.
I actually have his autograph, he wrote Science Rules and then signed it.
But can that be my official title? I kind of like it.
Bill Nye is an actual scientist?
Ixidor Asgrod Member
Posts : 1489 Join date : 2010-06-17 Age : 34
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:30 pm
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Bill Nye is an actual scientist?
That depends on how you want to define a scientist.
He performs scientific experiments for people, and if you hear him speak, you'd probably think so, and he actually helped design a sundial for the Mars rovers.
Posts : 2538 Join date : 2010-09-13 Age : 28 Location : Closer than you think.
Subject: Re: Do you beleive in ghosts? Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:41 pm
Ixidor Asgrod wrote:
Galenth Dysley wrote:
Bill Nye is an actual scientist?
That depends on how you want to define a scientist.
He performs scientific experiments for people, and if you hear him speak, you'd probably think so, and he actually helped design a sundial for the Mars rovers.
